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<mwxhtml><wx:metadata><title>Oral Testimony of KARENZI Théonèste</title><generator type="gsmcreator">gsmcreator</generator><indexed>yes</indexed><abstract>The oral testimony of KARENZI Théonèste, a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsi,recorded by the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda. The testimony discusses early
      memories of childhood and family, discrimination and persecution of Tutsis before Genocide, the worst atrocities during Genocide, suffering and witnessing human rights abuses, surviving the
      Genocide, life after the Genocide. The testimony is given in Kinyarwanda.</abstract><lang/><thumbnail src="kmc00124_vid2-thumbnail.jpg"/><categories/></wx:metadata><gm:gml>
  <gm:metadata>
    <id>Kmc00124/kmc00124_vid4.mp4</id>
    <dc:title>Oral Testimony of KARENZI Théonèste</dc:title>
    <sequence num="4" total="4"/>
    <dc:abstract>The oral testimony of KARENZI Théonèste, a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsi,recorded by the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda. The testimony discusses early
      memories of childhood and family, discrimination and persecution of Tutsis before Genocide, the worst atrocities during Genocide, suffering and witnessing human rights abuses, surviving the
      Genocide, life after the Genocide. The testimony is given in Kinyarwanda.</dc:abstract>
    <contributors>
      <contributor>Aegis Trust (UK)</contributor>
    </contributors>
    <dc:publisher>Kigali Genocide Memorial</dc:publisher>
    <dates/>
    <language code="kin"/>
    <rights>Kigali Genocide Memorial, Kigali, Rwanda</rights>
    <subjectheadings>
      <subjectheading>Genocide--Rwanda--History--20th century</subjectheading>
      <subjectheading>Genocide-Rwanda--Survivor</subjectheading>
      <subjectheading>Testimony--Rwanda</subjectheading>
      <subjectheading>Tutsi (African people)--Interviews</subjectheading>
      <subjectheading>Tutsi (African people)--Crimes against--Rwanda</subjectheading>
      <subjectheading>Rwanda--Ethnic Relations--History--20th Century</subjectheading>
      <subjectheading>Rwanda--History--Civil War, 1994--Atrocities</subjectheading>
    </subjectheadings>
    <dc:creator>KARENZI Théoneste</dc:creator>
    <formats>
      <format>mini-DV tape</format>
    </formats>
  </gm:metadata>
  <gm:gplayer type="rtmp" id="video4" src="rtmp://streaming.lib.utexas.edu/hrda-open/mp4:kmc/kmc00124/kmc00124-vid4.mp4" img="" width="480" height="360" style="style1" expand="true"/>
  <gm:itext type="toc" title="Table Of Contents" player="video4">
    <gm:tm start="00:01" stop="" player="">Post-Genocide Experience 
      <gm:tm start="00:14" stop="" player="">Facing My Torturers</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="01:36" stop="" player="">Integration In Post Genocide Society 
      <gm:tm start="01:55" stop="" player="">Education</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="02:01" stop="" player="">Military Personnel</gm:tm></gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="04:07" stop="" player="">Genocide And Justice 
      <gm:tm start="04:56" stop="" player="">Unity</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="05:11" stop="" player="">Reconciliation</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="14:28" stop="" player="">Justice</gm:tm></gm:tm></gm:tm>
  </gm:itext>
  <gm:itext type="toc" title="Topics" player="video4">
    <gm:tm start="00:01" stop="01:30" player="">Reflection On The Executioners And Torturers</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="01:55" stop="" player="">Family Life </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="04:09" stop="" player="">Unity And Reconciliation</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="07:21" stop="" player="">Courts And Judicial Systems
      
      <gm:tm start="07:47" stop="" player="">Gacaca Courts</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="08:21" stop="" player="">Impunity
      </gm:tm></gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="09:22" stop="" player="">Apology And Forgiveness</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="12:39" stop="" player="">UNICTR Activities</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="13:54" stop="" player="">Hope For The Future</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="14:48" stop="" player="">Justice</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="15:32" stop="" player="">Psychological Responses
      
      <gm:tm start="15:43" stop="" player="">Message To The Perpetrators And Their Families</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:41" stop="" player="">Message Of Hope To The Survivors</gm:tm></gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="19:45" stop="" player="">Comments On My Testimony</gm:tm>
  </gm:itext>
  <gm:itext type="transcript" title="Ubuhamya Bwanditse" player="video4">
    <gm:tm start="00:01" stop="00:05" player="">Aegis: NSHIMIYIMANA,umushoferi wigeze kutubwira ko ariho ubungubu.    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="00:05" stop="00:10" player="">KARENZI: Araho ari ku Kibuye,atwara imodoka arakora n'ubundi.   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="00:11" stop="" player="">Aegis: Hanyuma Sanani na Musayidize;baracyahari?   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="00:15" stop="01:35" player="">KARENZI: Sanani we; Sanani arafunze ba nza; naje gusubira ku Kibuye nsanga baramufunze.Musayidize we niwe nahasanze tujya no gusura rya rimbi ryanjye
      nakwita irimbi ryanjye n'ubwo nkiriho; ariko niryo nakwita irimbi.Ndavuga nti "Vayo tugende"Turagenda tujyayo.Tugezeyo ndamwibutsa inti "Aha hantu urahibuka neza"Na wa mudamu; nawa mudamu nawe
      twarabonanye;uwo watangaga umuvure ngo bansa; ngo bansekure nyine.Nawe turabonana; Ndamubwira nti; nti aha ngaha numvise ko hageze murumuna wanjye; sinabyishyiraho;nti; ambwira ko; mubwira
      iwacu mbese nti; kuko bumvaga ko ibyo aribyo byose njyewe napfuye.mubwira uko byagenze; aravuga ati "Rwose uwo mwana rwose yarahageze tumugirira neza; bambeshya ari jye babibwira.Ndangije
      ndamubwira nti; ati rwose bamwishe nyuma nyuma byarangiye; ntituzi n'aho twamutsi; bamutsinze twagiye kubona tubona baramutwaye gusa.Eeh ndababwira kumbe; ndababwira nti mwimbeshya kuko ni
      jyewe; mbabwira uko byagenze umudamu we; twabiko; nabikoreye mu nama ya secuteur yabo; bari bakoze inama ya Secteur niho namusanze; nabimubwiriye.Umudamu baramutwara bajya ku mufunga;
      Musayidize we aracyahari.A;a;a;ubu ariko; apfuye muri iyi minsi; apfuye vuba.Ariko yari agihari.    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="01:36" stop="01:54" player="">Aegis: Winjira mu gisirikare;uba umusirikare; uza kugeza igihe noneho;ubuzima bw'igisirikare ubuvamo.Winjira; ujya mu buzima bw'ishuri.Hagati aho ngaho
      wabashije kwakirwa nande; mu buzima; ubu ngubu uri hehe?    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="01:54" stop="02:12" player="">KARENZI: Ubuzima bw'ishuri; ubuzima bw'ishuri sinavuga ko bwanyoroheye; uretse ko; ntibyanangoye cyane kuko nagumye kuguma mu gisirikare; umusirikare
      twabanaga nari Escoti we; tugumya kubana;eeeh; turagomeza; tugumya kubana quoi?    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="02:12" stop="02:14" player="">Aegis: No kuri uyu munsi niwe mu kibana.    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="02:14" stop="02:16" player="">KARENZI: Eeeh no kuri uyu munsi niwe tukibana.    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="02:17" stop="" player="">Aegis: Nta bantu bo mu miryango wenda mwabashije kubonana bigeze barokoka niba hasigaye n'abo mu miryango y'inyuma nayo
      wabitubwira.    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="02:23" stop="02:37" player="">KARENZI: Eeeh; barahari; uribuka umuntu nigeze kukubwira witwa KARIMBA,tugitangira data wacu bigeze gufungira papa.yaraje ubu arahari; hari na masenge;
      hari na babyara banjye.    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="02:38" stop="02:51" player="">Aegis: Ugereranije uburyo waari ubayeho mbere y'intambara; ndavuga uburyo wari ufashwe muri société; mbere y'intambara; ugafata n'ubu ngubu nyuma
      y'intambara ………    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="02:53" stop="03:41" player="">KARENZI: Urumva byarahindutse cyane; kuko muri Société harimo ibintu mba numva bitakindeba.Nka; harimo nk'ibyo uzi nawe by'amafamille; ubukwe; n'ibindi
      bintu bigendana na Famille umuntu agira mu buzima; ama anniversaire ibiki; ibintu nk'ibyo ngibyo; ibyo ni ibintu niyibagiwe kabisa; narabyibagiwe complètement; hari ho ibyo numva bitandeba;
      amatangazo; nkanjye sinshobora kumva amatangazo kuri Radio; Sinshobora kumva; amatangazo se naba nyumva ngo amarire iki? Ko mba nzi ko; Cyakoze kubera inshuti; ariko amatangazo yandi yo kumva
      ngo barambikira ibyo ni ibintu njya numva ngwee bitandeba.Noneho ubwo mbese muri société ubuzima bwanjye buri Limite; ahantu; buri ahantu.   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="03:42" stop="03:53" player="">Aegis: Ndavuga noneho ku…………………………wowe ahari hari uburyo wabaga menace rimwe na rimwe; kenshi nako muri Société.Mbese izo menace ntazo ukibona muri
      Société?   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="03:55" stop="04:40" player="">KARENZI: Menace zo kuvu; kumva;ok nk'umuntu akaba yumva; udafite uburenganzira bwo kubaho;ukaba wumva kutage; ok ko mu mategeko ibyo aribyo byose numva
      ko amprotégé ariko mba numva nanone numva harimo ibitagenda; kuko mba numva; ariko kubona umuntu wagukoreye ibyo bintu; ukumva nanone muri kumwe nta; uba wumva uteri Seffe;uba wumva nta
      mutekano ufite nanone; eh; uba wumva nta mutekano ufite; kubana n'abantu nk'abo ngabo uzi ko byibuzi atabihaniwe; uzi ko atigeze agira ikindi kintu kindi gituma abireka koko; uba wumva buri
      munsi akibyiyu;uba wumva n'undi munsi wahura ana ya Situation nka ya yindi.   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="04:41" stop="04:57" player="">Aegis: Ndavuga noneho;ku kibazo nanone kerekeranye na;urabona hariho ikintu cyo kuvuga kuvuga ngo ubwiyunge…………………    </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="04:58" stop="06:08" player="">KARENZI: Njyewe ubumwe n'ubwiyunjye mba numva; ni amagambo abiri jyewe numva; ku bwanjye numva atagakwiye kujyana cyane.Kwiyunga n'ubumwe; kwiyunga byo
      birashoboka wenda; ariko ubumwe kereka ibyo  bita ubumwe atari byo nzi; ariko mba numva nabyo; ubwo bumwe njyewe mba numva ntabwo mbona; sijye ubwanze ariko mba mbona ahubwo de l autre
      cote aribo bashobora kuba bafite n'ikibazo kiruta icyanjye.Ngewe nshobora kubyakira ariko ikibazo ni uko mba mbona; sinzi;sinzi niba navuga ko byaba byarihutishijwe bitarageza igihe.kuko mba
      mbona nta byo muri make; ngewe mba mbona ubundi Atari ibintu byo kuvuga ngo guca hirya no hino; ndebye neza nkanjye; nkurikije uburyo umuntu yabanaga n'abantu n'uko ubu ngubu byifashe; mba
      mbona nta mihindukire irimo cyane; ikiriho ni ugutinya amategeko gusa.Ku ruhande rw'ababa barakoze icyaha.   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="06:09" stop="06:22" player="">Aegis: Hari ikintu kiriho kivuga ko; cyo guhamagara abacitse ku icumu kugirango bajye mu magereza ngo bakangurire abantu; birege banemere icyaha.Ese
      icyo kintu wumva ugishyigikiye;Wumva koko byakwiye kubaho cyangwa oya?   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="06:23" stop="07:17" player="">KARENZI: Njyewe biriya ntabyo nshyigikira kabisa.Biriya ntabyo nshyigikira kuko burya njye mbifata nko muri Cadre yo kubaforca; kuko mba mbona; njyewe
      maze kubona ingero nyinshi z'abantu muri ubwo buryo; nzi neza ibi; ibiobazo biba byaragiye biba; n'ukuntu baba baragiye bica abantu nkanjye wari uhari; nkumva umuntu yishyizeho abantu
      kugirango; urabona Famille zifunze ari nyinshi, harimo Famille hafunze umwe, hafunze babiri; ise wabo; inde; umuntu akishyiraho abantu bose kubera ko ngo yemeye icyaha nubundi biba bizwi ko
      yishe abantu; ariko akabishyiraho bose kugirango; kuberako ngo niba yemeye icyo icyaha ngo abantu bose babaye Libere; ngo icyaha kibahanaguritseho kuko bose yabishyizeho; kuko iyo yemeye umwe
      yemera na benshi.Akabishyiraho bose kugirango arokore Famille ye ariko muri make ugasanga araroga Société.   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="07:18" stop="07:46" player="">Aegis: Ikindi kuri icyo ngicyo hari ikintu cya Gacaca; ese cyo ko abantu birega bakemera icyaha; bakaza bakabasha; nyine kuri cya kintu cy'ubumwe
      n'ubwiyunge nicyo tukiriho mbese ubona wowe iyo urebye nkawe ukareba ibyabaye mbese ………wenda hirya no hino hari ibyo wumva yenda bike cyane byerekeranye n'ibyabaye; n'ubuhamya bw'abacitse ku
      icumu n'ingaruka bagira; wowe Gacaca ubona ishoboka?   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="07:47" stop="08:55" player="">KARENZI: Gacaca; Gacaca ubundi ni uko atari jye ugena cyangwa Atari jye ugira icyo nkora ; gacaca njyewe kubwanjye; nka njye uzi Genocide;uyizi;
      wayibayemo; mba numva Gacaca batayishyize muri Genocide.Mba numva Gacaca yagombye kujya muri Affere civile n'izindi affere nk'izongizo ariko Genocide yo kuko sinzi ko navuga ko ari Sipeciale
      ariko sinzi;sinzi;si;njyewe sinabona n'ibisobanuro byo gusobanura Genocide; kuko mba numva idakwiye kwitwa; kubikemuza Gacaca n'ibintu nk'ibyo ngibyo; mba numva ari uburyo bwo koroshya genocide
      ku;koroshya ikibazo cyabaye; kandi bakagike;kandi; bakaba bashatse kugikemura.kidakemutse koko;ahubwo ari nko ku; ni nko ku; kutavura igisebe neza ukaki; ukagira ibyo upfundikirana; nko
      gupfundikirana; ni ibintu bidasobanutse; njyewe mba numva nta .   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="08:55" stop="09:20" player="">Aegis: Tuvuze neza yenda urabona hariho nk'ikintu gisa nk'aho abacitse ku icumu wenda duhereye kuri afferi ya kabiri; urabona ko
      hari??????  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="09:22" stop="10:43" player="">KARENZI: Donc; njyewe ku kintu cyo kwemera icyaha; kwemera icyaha mba mbona bias n'aho byabaye; nkurikije uburyo njyewe maze kureba ibintu byinshi; cas
      nyinshi; mbona kwemera icyaha bias n'aho byabaye ko; sinzi uko nari ngiye kubivuga; ko; kwemera icyaha byabaye; ahubwo kutemera icyaha mbona ari cyo cyabaye icyaha; kuko iyo wemeye icyaha
      njyewe uko mbibona mba mbona wumva; iyo wemeye icyaha mba mbona gihise kinaguhaguru; bo ababi; ababyemera yumva ko gihita kinamuhanagurikaho.Yumva rero ko kongera kwica umuntu asanze hanze ni
      ibintu byoroshye kuko n'ubundi; byo yanabikora no ku mugaragaro kubyemera; kubyemera; akagenda akabyemera agataha.Kwemera icyaha mba numva njyewe nta gaciro mbiha.Kuko n'ubundi utabyemera;
      ubyemere; turabizi  abantu barapfuye; tuzi n'ababishe ahubwo ikibazo nibakurikirane neza gusa bamenye abishe abantu; bakore anquette bamenye abioshe abantu; ibyo byo gutinda kwa Genocide;
      kuvuga ngo bazatinza; ngo ni Procedire ndende mba numva nta gaciro mbiha kuko nubundi baba bakwiye kwemera icyaha ;kwemera icyaha; kwemera icyaha se ni iki? Simbyumva; njyewe numva; sibinjyamo
      Quoi.  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="10:45" stop="11:06" player="">Aegis: Noneho urabona ikintu cyo gufungura bariya bantu bakaza bakabana n'abandi Bantu biciye urabona ko umuntu; nk'umuntu wenda wari ufite umuryango
      bakawica bakawumara akaba asigaye ari umwe; noneho undi wafunzwe akaza agafungurwa akaba aje kubana n'abo Bantu afite umuryango we kandi aje kubana n'uwo umwe wacitse ku icumu; ubona nta
      ngaruka bizagirira abacitse ku icumu?</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="11:07" stop="12:31" player="">KARENZI: Ingaruka zo zirahari; wenda nko mu mugi;njye ndiherera mu cyaro nk'aho navutse; nko mu cyaro byabindi nahoze mbabwira kare byo; ibyo bita
      ingobyi; guhekerana; ubu hariho umuntu niyo yateranya Famille imwe iba i Kibungo n'indi iba iKigali atashobora kubona abantu bajya mu mujishi; agomba kubitegekerwa agahekerwa n'abo bantu kandi
      abo Bantu badakundanye;kuko we ntanubwo abaraho kwemera icyaha wenda ahari ngo avuge ko uwo muntu yamubabariye; uwo muntu baturanye; we yumvaa ko ari imbabazi za Leta; Leta yamubabariye;uwo
      yiciye umuntu nta ruhare abifiteho ahubwo aramusuzugura akumva ko nta n'agaciro aba akimuha; ahubwo burya sinzi n'impamvu no kubica burya; uba ubo;njyewe n'iyo mbabona nkunze no kuganira nabo;
      n'iyo muhuye ukabona ukuntu akureba; uba ubona yakwica.Nta kindi rero kizavamo igisubizo cyabo n'ubundi ni uku;n'ubundi bazajya bagumya bice abacika cumu cyane kuko ari bakeya. Batabicishije
      amahoro bazabicisha amarozi; kuko babafite gutya.Nta muryango aba asiga mu rugo aba afite umutekano muke; asohotse gutyo; nta muzamu aba afite; afite umuryango muke; bazinjira no mu nzu bagende
      bamuroge; aze abirye.Azarwara azapfira mu nzu; ese ni nka byabindi ni ukwibana n'undi akibana.</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="12:32" stop="12:50" player="">Aegis: Urukiko rwa Arusha rwashyiriweho kugirango ruce imanza abakoze itsembabwoko n'itsembatsemba.Mbese urukiko rwa Arusha urubona gute?????????</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="12:51" stop="13:40" player="">KARENZI: Ok urukiko rwa Arusha nta mikorere yarwo na mike nshima; kuko bo nyine Genocide bayifata nk'iyo mu bitabo, nk'ama film; nta gaciro babiha;
      cyane ko batana; ngirango nta nubwo banazi Genocide icyo ari cyo ahari.Njyewe mbona nta gaciro bayiha.Kuko urtse ko ngirango bahera n'aha iwacu ahari;ngirango n'iyo bakora bahera n'aha iwacu;
      natwe abanyarwanda ngirango abenshi ntabwo baha Genocide agaciro.Njyewe hari n'igihe njya ntekereza nkabababarira kuko mba numva nabo; nkumva ndabababariye ku ruhande rumwe; kuko niba babona
      abanyarwanda tutayiha agaciro abanyamahanga bazayiha agaciro batanayizi bo nta n'icyo yigeze ibakoraho?Bo nta gaciro Genocide bayiha; nta gaciro bayiha  nta ko kabisa; ntako
      mbona.  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="13:42" stop="13:55" player="">Aegis: Wowe yenda nk'umuntu warokotse ku ruhande rwawe; umaze kubona usigaye wenyine yenda wumva imigambi ufite ku buzima bwawe iri imbere wumva
      utekereza iki; wumva Projet yawe ni iyihe?  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="13:57" stop="14:35" player="">KARENZI: Urabona abantu babaye ba Adam na Eva b'imiryango yabo;uko byifashe kose umuntu agomba kubaho; ni uguharanira kubaho kandi umuntu akabaho
      neza;ni uku; nibyo navugaga nyine bya ba Adamu na Eva by'imiryango; ugafonda Société nshya uka; ukayi; ni nko kuyirema niko nabyita ahasigaye ukareba ko Société nzi;wenda yazaba nziza.Cyangwa
      nikurira mu bihe byiza mu gihe ibintu bizaba byakosowe ikazakura neza nyine iyo Société; kuko njyewe ku giti cyanjye ni iyo gahunda niha;kuko navuga ko ndi nka Adamu na Eva ku
      mugani.   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="14:37" stop="14:53" player="">Aegis: Nagirango wenda abanyarwanda bose ndetse na Leta y'ubumwe ugire icyo wababwira kubyerekeranye n'imikorere kugirango; ku buryo imikorere;
      imikorere yarushaho kugenda neza kugirango ibintu byabaye ntibyongere kubaho.Ubona hakorwa iki?   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="14:54" stop="15:33" player="">KARENZI: U; mba mbona badakwiye guca ibintu ku ruhande; bakerekana ikibazo; bagatanga umuti wacyo; kuko; bakabanza bakareba ingaruka zishobora kubaho
      bata; badatonetse ikibazo; batakinyuze ku ruhande ngo bakikoreho gutya boroshye ikibazo; ibyo mbese bita ubutabera nyakuri; bugakora neza; cyane cyane nicyo ndi bwibandeho cy'ubutabera;
      ubutabera bukaba ubutabera koko izina rikaba; harya baravuga ngo izina niryo muntu; eh; izina rikajyana n'igikorwa cyaryo nicyo njyewe numva nabivugaho.  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="15:34" stop="15:42" player="">Aegis: Hanyuma rero by'umwihariko nk'ubutumwa waha wenda abishe abantu n'imiryango yabo wenda??????????  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="15:43" stop="16:37" player="">KARENZI: Ubutumwa se bw'abishe abantu; ubutumwa bw'abishe abantu rwose mbabarira rwose icyo kibazo sinabona icyo nababwira; Ese nababwira iki?Sina; icyo
      nabagiraho inama gusa nabagira inama yo kutongera; ariko kubica bo barabishe keretse niba yenda kutuzurira abantu bacu ahubwo ni ugutuza tukabana njyewe nkanjye ku bwanjye numva nta rwango
      mbafitiye; ahubwo bo njyewe iyo mbareba mba mbona banyanga.Ntabwo mbabona ko banyanga; baranabigaraga; burya umuntu ukwanga burya ntumuyoberwa.Bakwiye guhinduka nabo bakaza mu; mu murongobaka
      tugaturana; tugaturana nabi ariko tugaturana bakaturekera ubuzima bwacu;twabaho neza twabaho nabi; ariko bakaduha uburenganzira bwo kubaho kuko ni uburenganzira bwacu.  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="16:39" stop="17:07" player="">Aegis: Urabona;icyo nashakaga kuvuga;hari itsemba bwoko ryabayeho;ni itsembabwoko ryari ryateguwe kuburyo nta muntu witwa umututsi wagombaga
      gusigaraho;bon; umutego mutindi wavuga ko ushibukana nyirawo ni ukuvuga ngo cya gikorwa ntabwo cyaje kubaho; baje kwi retrouva ahubwo babana nab a; Bantu babandi bashakaga kumaraho; bagasanga
      aribo ?????Icyo nagirango ubabwire ni icyerekeranye n'ibi???????????????  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="17:08" stop="18:21" player="">KARENZI: Eeh; ok nagirango mbabwire ko; ok; icyo nababwira; icyo nashobora wenda kubabwira; ibintu byabaye byakababereye ubuhamya bukomeye cyane; kuko
      ibyo ari byo byose inyuma y'ubu; imbere y'ubu buzima bwacu hari ubundi.Hari n'ubundi bushobozi butagaragarira ahangaha byerekana ko igikorwa cyabo bateguye ntibashoboye kukigeraho kandi si ku
      bushake bwabo kuko ntibigeze baryama ntibasinziraga byo ntibaryamaga byo; uko babivugaga ntibigeze basinzira.Bagahinduka bakabona ko nyuma y'ubu buzima hari ubundi; bakabona ko hari ikindi
      kintu kwanza sinanagihisha; bakabona ko hari Imana hejuru;ngo iyakaremye; sinzi uko; ngo iyakaremye niyo ikamena.Yee; bakumva ko byose ubuzima bwacu ntibushingiye kuri bo.Bakwiye kwemera
      tugaturana; kandi tugaturana neza; kandi icyo mbona cyo; n'icyakababereye ubuhamya mpamya neza ko aho abantu bari bageze mbere y'ubwicanyi ubu ngubu bamaze kongera gutera intambwe yo kuhegera;
      ndetse hariho n'abaharenze.Icyo babuze ahari ni abantu;ariko abantu basho; ibintu bishobora kuba byarabonetse bikababera ubuhamya bukomeye bw'uko kwica; icyakoze sinzi uko nabivuga.Ibyo nshaka
      kubivuga mura; ibyo nshaka kuvuga byose murabyumva.  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="18:22" stop="18:43" player="">Aegis: Message waha wenda abacitse ku icumu; urabona wenda abana bacitse ku icumu; bagasigara nta miryango ihari; hagasigara n'abantu benshi basigaye
      ari responsible;????????????????????  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="18:44" stop="19:44" player="">KARENZI: Urabona nyuma ya Genocide; abantu bumvise; ubuzima babugize akantu koroshye cyane; uh; abantu bakora ibibi; bara; abantu mbese bakunda
      gukoresha iterme ngo "Kwangirika"bakunda gukoresha iterime ngo "Kwangirika"Icyo nabakangurira ni uko gusa; nababwira ko bagomba guharanira kubaho; kandi bakabaho neza.Ibyo nahoze mvuga ko ari
      ba Adamu na Eva b'imiryango yabo bakarema Société nziza; Société igend;tukagerageza guko; bakagerageza gukosora; cyane cyane urubyiruko; bakagerageza gukosora amakosa yose yaba yarakozwe na;
      n'abo nakwita abatubanjirije; si abacu ndi kuvuga ku ruhande rwacu kuko nta kibi twebwe abacu bakoze; ndashaka kuvuga ko mbese batera ikirenge mu cyabo; kuko nzi ko ababo bari babayeho mu buryo
      bubanogeye cyane cyane nicyo cyabateraga ishyari ryo kugirango babamare </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="19:45" stop="19:55" player="">Aegis: Wenda ubutumwa watanga??????????????</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="19:56" stop="20:38" player="">KARENZI: Temoingage;ok; ku;  kushobora kubyumva uwo ariwe wese; aah; nshobora kuba navuze amagambo wenda akarisyemo gake; cyangwa atanejeje bamwe;
      ariko njyewe navuze ibyo numva ngomba kuvuga;mvuga ibyo numva; ok; ibyo navuze kubwanjye numva bikwiye;eeh; kandi numva uwo bitanezeza nta; sinzi; sinzi uko nabivuga.Byose harimo abo bigomba
      kunezeza; harimo n'abo bigomba kubabaza niko bigomba kumera n'ubundi nta gishimwa na bose.   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="20:39" stop="20:41" player="">Aegis: Nta kindi wakongeraho?</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="20:42" stop="20:55" player="">KARENZI: Cyane numva nta kindi;uretse ko ubwo ni ubuhamya buri shoti; buri se; ntabwo eeh; bugufi; nabo; nagerageje kubuhina byo ni byinshi; ni
      byinshi.</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="20:56" stop="21:33" player="">Aegis: Njyewe  mfite akabazo gato; urabona iyi Cassette izarebwa n'abantu benshi kandi abo Bantu bazayireba harimo n'abana bawe cyangwa n'abuzukuru
      bawe  ?????? Niyo mpamvu rero nanjye nagusaba ko niba hari ikintu wenda wanzura wabwi; wabwira abo Bantu bazagukomokaho; kuko nubwo bishe umuryango wawe ariko uriho kuko wowe uhari.Rero
      nkumva yuko ndetse n'abandi Bantu bazareba ubu buhamya bo mu mpande zose; kuko barabishe iwanyu barabamara; ariko ntibabamaze nkuko babishakaga ubwo rero ndumva ufite ubutumwa
      watanga?????   </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="21:34" stop="22:09" player="">KARENZI: Ok; nkanjye muri ubu buhamya bwanjye byose nanyuze mu buzima bukwiye nyura no mubudakwiye ubuzima bubi; icyo maze kubona ukora icyiza
      ukagisanga imbere; wakora n'ikibi ukagisanga imbere; ikiruta rero;ubwo guhitamo ni ukwa buri wese azahitamo ibyo; niyumva akwiye kubona; agakora ibyiza akazabisanga imbere cyangwa akazabisigira
      umuryango we; niba akwiye gukora ibibi akazabisigira umuryango we akabiraga n'urubyaro rwe; guhitamo ndumva ari uruhare rwa buri umwe wese afite amahitamo.  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="22:10" stop="" player="">Aegis: Urakoze cyane  </gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="22:11" stop="22:12" player="">KARENZI: Uuuuh.</gm:tm>
  </gm:itext>
  <gm:itext type="toc" title="View People" player="video4">
    <gm:tm start="00:14" stop="" player="">Sanane</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="00:19" stop="" player="">Musayidizi</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="02:23" stop="" player="">Kalimba</gm:tm>
    <gm:tm start="13:58" stop="" player="">Adam and Eve</gm:tm>
  </gm:itext>
  <gm:itext type="toc" title="View Places" player="video4">
    <gm:tm start="00:04" stop="" player="">Kibuye</gm:tm>
  </gm:itext>
  <gm:itext type="map" title="View Map" player="video4">
    <map kml="/extensions/GSMCreator/rwdtest.xml" lat="-1.7410649992245106" lng="30.16845703125" zoom="8"/>
  </gm:itext>
</gm:gml><p>
</p>
<h3> <span class="mw-headline" id="Continues_from_Part_3_of_the_Oral_History_Testimony_of_Karenzi_Th.C3.A9oneste.">Continues from <a href="index.php/Kmc00124/kmc00124_vid3.mp4" title="Kmc00124/kmc00124 vid3.mp4">Part 3 of the Oral History Testimony of Karenzi Théoneste</a>.</span></h3>
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Table Of Contents

Post-Genocide Experience
- Facing My Torturers
- Integration In Post Genocide Society
  - Education
  - Military Personnel
- Genocide And Justice
  - Unity
  - Reconciliation
  - Justice

Topics

Reflection On The Executioners And Torturers
Family Life
Unity And Reconciliation
Courts And Judicial Systems
- Gacaca Courts
- Impunity
Apology And Forgiveness
UNICTR Activities
Hope For The Future
Justice
Psychological Responses
- Message To The Perpetrators And Their Families
- Message Of Hope To The Survivors
Comments On My Testimony

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Sanane
Musayidizi
Kalimba
Adam and Eve

View Places

Kibuye

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Ubuhamya Bwanditse

Aegis: NSHIMIYIMANA,umushoferi wigeze kutubwira ko ariho ubungubu.
KARENZI: Araho ari ku Kibuye,atwara imodoka arakora n'ubundi.
Aegis: Hanyuma Sanani na Musayidize;baracyahari?
KARENZI: Sanani we; Sanani arafunze ba nza; naje gusubira ku Kibuye nsanga baramufunze.Musayidize we niwe nahasanze tujya no gusura rya rimbi ryanjye nakwita irimbi ryanjye n'ubwo nkiriho; ariko niryo nakwita irimbi.Ndavuga nti "Vayo tugende"Turagenda tujyayo.Tugezeyo ndamwibutsa inti "Aha hantu urahibuka neza"Na wa mudamu; nawa mudamu nawe twarabonanye;uwo watangaga umuvure ngo bansa; ngo bansekure nyine.Nawe turabonana; Ndamubwira nti; nti aha ngaha numvise ko hageze murumuna wanjye; sinabyishyiraho;nti; ambwira ko; mubwira iwacu mbese nti; kuko bumvaga ko ibyo aribyo byose njyewe napfuye.mubwira uko byagenze; aravuga ati "Rwose uwo mwana rwose yarahageze tumugirira neza; bambeshya ari jye babibwira.Ndangije ndamubwira nti; ati rwose bamwishe nyuma nyuma byarangiye; ntituzi n'aho twamutsi; bamutsinze twagiye kubona tubona baramutwaye gusa.Eeh ndababwira kumbe; ndababwira nti mwimbeshya kuko ni jyewe; mbabwira uko byagenze umudamu we; twabiko; nabikoreye mu nama ya secuteur yabo; bari bakoze inama ya Secteur niho namusanze; nabimubwiriye.Umudamu baramutwara bajya ku mufunga; Musayidize we aracyahari.A;a;a;ubu ariko; apfuye muri iyi minsi; apfuye vuba.Ariko yari agihari.
Aegis: Winjira mu gisirikare;uba umusirikare; uza kugeza igihe noneho;ubuzima bw'igisirikare ubuvamo.Winjira; ujya mu buzima bw'ishuri.Hagati aho ngaho wabashije kwakirwa nande; mu buzima; ubu ngubu uri hehe?
KARENZI: Ubuzima bw'ishuri; ubuzima bw'ishuri sinavuga ko bwanyoroheye; uretse ko; ntibyanangoye cyane kuko nagumye kuguma mu gisirikare; umusirikare twabanaga nari Escoti we; tugumya kubana;eeeh; turagomeza; tugumya kubana quoi?
Aegis: No kuri uyu munsi niwe mu kibana.
KARENZI: Eeeh no kuri uyu munsi niwe tukibana.
Aegis: Nta bantu bo mu miryango wenda mwabashije kubonana bigeze barokoka niba hasigaye n'abo mu miryango y'inyuma nayo wabitubwira.
KARENZI: Eeeh; barahari; uribuka umuntu nigeze kukubwira witwa KARIMBA,tugitangira data wacu bigeze gufungira papa.yaraje ubu arahari; hari na masenge; hari na babyara banjye.
Aegis: Ugereranije uburyo waari ubayeho mbere y'intambara; ndavuga uburyo wari ufashwe muri société; mbere y'intambara; ugafata n'ubu ngubu nyuma y'intambara ………
KARENZI: Urumva byarahindutse cyane; kuko muri Société harimo ibintu mba numva bitakindeba.Nka; harimo nk'ibyo uzi nawe by'amafamille; ubukwe; n'ibindi bintu bigendana na Famille umuntu agira mu buzima; ama anniversaire ibiki; ibintu nk'ibyo ngibyo; ibyo ni ibintu niyibagiwe kabisa; narabyibagiwe complètement; hari ho ibyo numva bitandeba; amatangazo; nkanjye sinshobora kumva amatangazo kuri Radio; Sinshobora kumva; amatangazo se naba nyumva ngo amarire iki? Ko mba nzi ko; Cyakoze kubera inshuti; ariko amatangazo yandi yo kumva ngo barambikira ibyo ni ibintu njya numva ngwee bitandeba.Noneho ubwo mbese muri société ubuzima bwanjye buri Limite; ahantu; buri ahantu.
Aegis: Ndavuga noneho ku…………………………wowe ahari hari uburyo wabaga menace rimwe na rimwe; kenshi nako muri Société.Mbese izo menace ntazo ukibona muri Société?
KARENZI: Menace zo kuvu; kumva;ok nk'umuntu akaba yumva; udafite uburenganzira bwo kubaho;ukaba wumva kutage; ok ko mu mategeko ibyo aribyo byose numva ko amprotégé ariko mba numva nanone numva harimo ibitagenda; kuko mba numva; ariko kubona umuntu wagukoreye ibyo bintu; ukumva nanone muri kumwe nta; uba wumva uteri Seffe;uba wumva nta mutekano ufite nanone; eh; uba wumva nta mutekano ufite; kubana n'abantu nk'abo ngabo uzi ko byibuzi atabihaniwe; uzi ko atigeze agira ikindi kintu kindi gituma abireka koko; uba wumva buri munsi akibyiyu;uba wumva n'undi munsi wahura ana ya Situation nka ya yindi.
Aegis: Ndavuga noneho;ku kibazo nanone kerekeranye na;urabona hariho ikintu cyo kuvuga kuvuga ngo ubwiyunge…………………
KARENZI: Njyewe ubumwe n'ubwiyunjye mba numva; ni amagambo abiri jyewe numva; ku bwanjye numva atagakwiye kujyana cyane.Kwiyunga n'ubumwe; kwiyunga byo birashoboka wenda; ariko ubumwe kereka ibyo bita ubumwe atari byo nzi; ariko mba numva nabyo; ubwo bumwe njyewe mba numva ntabwo mbona; sijye ubwanze ariko mba mbona ahubwo de l autre cote aribo bashobora kuba bafite n'ikibazo kiruta icyanjye.Ngewe nshobora kubyakira ariko ikibazo ni uko mba mbona; sinzi;sinzi niba navuga ko byaba byarihutishijwe bitarageza igihe.kuko mba mbona nta byo muri make; ngewe mba mbona ubundi Atari ibintu byo kuvuga ngo guca hirya no hino; ndebye neza nkanjye; nkurikije uburyo umuntu yabanaga n'abantu n'uko ubu ngubu byifashe; mba mbona nta mihindukire irimo cyane; ikiriho ni ugutinya amategeko gusa.Ku ruhande rw'ababa barakoze icyaha.
Aegis: Hari ikintu kiriho kivuga ko; cyo guhamagara abacitse ku icumu kugirango bajye mu magereza ngo bakangurire abantu; birege banemere icyaha.Ese icyo kintu wumva ugishyigikiye;Wumva koko byakwiye kubaho cyangwa oya?
KARENZI: Njyewe biriya ntabyo nshyigikira kabisa.Biriya ntabyo nshyigikira kuko burya njye mbifata nko muri Cadre yo kubaforca; kuko mba mbona; njyewe maze kubona ingero nyinshi z'abantu muri ubwo buryo; nzi neza ibi; ibiobazo biba byaragiye biba; n'ukuntu baba baragiye bica abantu nkanjye wari uhari; nkumva umuntu yishyizeho abantu kugirango; urabona Famille zifunze ari nyinshi, harimo Famille hafunze umwe, hafunze babiri; ise wabo; inde; umuntu akishyiraho abantu bose kubera ko ngo yemeye icyaha nubundi biba bizwi ko yishe abantu; ariko akabishyiraho bose kugirango; kuberako ngo niba yemeye icyo icyaha ngo abantu bose babaye Libere; ngo icyaha kibahanaguritseho kuko bose yabishyizeho; kuko iyo yemeye umwe yemera na benshi.Akabishyiraho bose kugirango arokore Famille ye ariko muri make ugasanga araroga Société.
Aegis: Ikindi kuri icyo ngicyo hari ikintu cya Gacaca; ese cyo ko abantu birega bakemera icyaha; bakaza bakabasha; nyine kuri cya kintu cy'ubumwe n'ubwiyunge nicyo tukiriho mbese ubona wowe iyo urebye nkawe ukareba ibyabaye mbese ………wenda hirya no hino hari ibyo wumva yenda bike cyane byerekeranye n'ibyabaye; n'ubuhamya bw'abacitse ku icumu n'ingaruka bagira; wowe Gacaca ubona ishoboka?
KARENZI: Gacaca; Gacaca ubundi ni uko atari jye ugena cyangwa Atari jye ugira icyo nkora ; gacaca njyewe kubwanjye; nka njye uzi Genocide;uyizi; wayibayemo; mba numva Gacaca batayishyize muri Genocide.Mba numva Gacaca yagombye kujya muri Affere civile n'izindi affere nk'izongizo ariko Genocide yo kuko sinzi ko navuga ko ari Sipeciale ariko sinzi;sinzi;si;njyewe sinabona n'ibisobanuro byo gusobanura Genocide; kuko mba numva idakwiye kwitwa; kubikemuza Gacaca n'ibintu nk'ibyo ngibyo; mba numva ari uburyo bwo koroshya genocide ku;koroshya ikibazo cyabaye; kandi bakagike;kandi; bakaba bashatse kugikemura.kidakemutse koko;ahubwo ari nko ku; ni nko ku; kutavura igisebe neza ukaki; ukagira ibyo upfundikirana; nko gupfundikirana; ni ibintu bidasobanutse; njyewe mba numva nta .
Aegis: Tuvuze neza yenda urabona hariho nk'ikintu gisa nk'aho abacitse ku icumu wenda duhereye kuri afferi ya kabiri; urabona ko hari??????
KARENZI: Donc; njyewe ku kintu cyo kwemera icyaha; kwemera icyaha mba mbona bias n'aho byabaye; nkurikije uburyo njyewe maze kureba ibintu byinshi; cas nyinshi; mbona kwemera icyaha bias n'aho byabaye ko; sinzi uko nari ngiye kubivuga; ko; kwemera icyaha byabaye; ahubwo kutemera icyaha mbona ari cyo cyabaye icyaha; kuko iyo wemeye icyaha njyewe uko mbibona mba mbona wumva; iyo wemeye icyaha mba mbona gihise kinaguhaguru; bo ababi; ababyemera yumva ko gihita kinamuhanagurikaho.Yumva rero ko kongera kwica umuntu asanze hanze ni ibintu byoroshye kuko n'ubundi; byo yanabikora no ku mugaragaro kubyemera; kubyemera; akagenda akabyemera agataha.Kwemera icyaha mba numva njyewe nta gaciro mbiha.Kuko n'ubundi utabyemera; ubyemere; turabizi abantu barapfuye; tuzi n'ababishe ahubwo ikibazo nibakurikirane neza gusa bamenye abishe abantu; bakore anquette bamenye abioshe abantu; ibyo byo gutinda kwa Genocide; kuvuga ngo bazatinza; ngo ni Procedire ndende mba numva nta gaciro mbiha kuko nubundi baba bakwiye kwemera icyaha ;kwemera icyaha; kwemera icyaha se ni iki? Simbyumva; njyewe numva; sibinjyamo Quoi.
Aegis: Noneho urabona ikintu cyo gufungura bariya bantu bakaza bakabana n'abandi Bantu biciye urabona ko umuntu; nk'umuntu wenda wari ufite umuryango bakawica bakawumara akaba asigaye ari umwe; noneho undi wafunzwe akaza agafungurwa akaba aje kubana n'abo Bantu afite umuryango we kandi aje kubana n'uwo umwe wacitse ku icumu; ubona nta ngaruka bizagirira abacitse ku icumu?
KARENZI: Ingaruka zo zirahari; wenda nko mu mugi;njye ndiherera mu cyaro nk'aho navutse; nko mu cyaro byabindi nahoze mbabwira kare byo; ibyo bita ingobyi; guhekerana; ubu hariho umuntu niyo yateranya Famille imwe iba i Kibungo n'indi iba iKigali atashobora kubona abantu bajya mu mujishi; agomba kubitegekerwa agahekerwa n'abo bantu kandi abo Bantu badakundanye;kuko we ntanubwo abaraho kwemera icyaha wenda ahari ngo avuge ko uwo muntu yamubabariye; uwo muntu baturanye; we yumvaa ko ari imbabazi za Leta; Leta yamubabariye;uwo yiciye umuntu nta ruhare abifiteho ahubwo aramusuzugura akumva ko nta n'agaciro aba akimuha; ahubwo burya sinzi n'impamvu no kubica burya; uba ubo;njyewe n'iyo mbabona nkunze no kuganira nabo; n'iyo muhuye ukabona ukuntu akureba; uba ubona yakwica.Nta kindi rero kizavamo igisubizo cyabo n'ubundi ni uku;n'ubundi bazajya bagumya bice abacika cumu cyane kuko ari bakeya. Batabicishije amahoro bazabicisha amarozi; kuko babafite gutya.Nta muryango aba asiga mu rugo aba afite umutekano muke; asohotse gutyo; nta muzamu aba afite; afite umuryango muke; bazinjira no mu nzu bagende bamuroge; aze abirye.Azarwara azapfira mu nzu; ese ni nka byabindi ni ukwibana n'undi akibana.
Aegis: Urukiko rwa Arusha rwashyiriweho kugirango ruce imanza abakoze itsembabwoko n'itsembatsemba.Mbese urukiko rwa Arusha urubona gute?????????
KARENZI: Ok urukiko rwa Arusha nta mikorere yarwo na mike nshima; kuko bo nyine Genocide bayifata nk'iyo mu bitabo, nk'ama film; nta gaciro babiha; cyane ko batana; ngirango nta nubwo banazi Genocide icyo ari cyo ahari.Njyewe mbona nta gaciro bayiha.Kuko urtse ko ngirango bahera n'aha iwacu ahari;ngirango n'iyo bakora bahera n'aha iwacu; natwe abanyarwanda ngirango abenshi ntabwo baha Genocide agaciro.Njyewe hari n'igihe njya ntekereza nkabababarira kuko mba numva nabo; nkumva ndabababariye ku ruhande rumwe; kuko niba babona abanyarwanda tutayiha agaciro abanyamahanga bazayiha agaciro batanayizi bo nta n'icyo yigeze ibakoraho?Bo nta gaciro Genocide bayiha; nta gaciro bayiha nta ko kabisa; ntako mbona.
Aegis: Wowe yenda nk'umuntu warokotse ku ruhande rwawe; umaze kubona usigaye wenyine yenda wumva imigambi ufite ku buzima bwawe iri imbere wumva utekereza iki; wumva Projet yawe ni iyihe?
KARENZI: Urabona abantu babaye ba Adam na Eva b'imiryango yabo;uko byifashe kose umuntu agomba kubaho; ni uguharanira kubaho kandi umuntu akabaho neza;ni uku; nibyo navugaga nyine bya ba Adamu na Eva by'imiryango; ugafonda Société nshya uka; ukayi; ni nko kuyirema niko nabyita ahasigaye ukareba ko Société nzi;wenda yazaba nziza.Cyangwa nikurira mu bihe byiza mu gihe ibintu bizaba byakosowe ikazakura neza nyine iyo Société; kuko njyewe ku giti cyanjye ni iyo gahunda niha;kuko navuga ko ndi nka Adamu na Eva ku mugani.
Aegis: Nagirango wenda abanyarwanda bose ndetse na Leta y'ubumwe ugire icyo wababwira kubyerekeranye n'imikorere kugirango; ku buryo imikorere; imikorere yarushaho kugenda neza kugirango ibintu byabaye ntibyongere kubaho.Ubona hakorwa iki?
KARENZI: U; mba mbona badakwiye guca ibintu ku ruhande; bakerekana ikibazo; bagatanga umuti wacyo; kuko; bakabanza bakareba ingaruka zishobora kubaho bata; badatonetse ikibazo; batakinyuze ku ruhande ngo bakikoreho gutya boroshye ikibazo; ibyo mbese bita ubutabera nyakuri; bugakora neza; cyane cyane nicyo ndi bwibandeho cy'ubutabera; ubutabera bukaba ubutabera koko izina rikaba; harya baravuga ngo izina niryo muntu; eh; izina rikajyana n'igikorwa cyaryo nicyo njyewe numva nabivugaho.
Aegis: Hanyuma rero by'umwihariko nk'ubutumwa waha wenda abishe abantu n'imiryango yabo wenda??????????
KARENZI: Ubutumwa se bw'abishe abantu; ubutumwa bw'abishe abantu rwose mbabarira rwose icyo kibazo sinabona icyo nababwira; Ese nababwira iki?Sina; icyo nabagiraho inama gusa nabagira inama yo kutongera; ariko kubica bo barabishe keretse niba yenda kutuzurira abantu bacu ahubwo ni ugutuza tukabana njyewe nkanjye ku bwanjye numva nta rwango mbafitiye; ahubwo bo njyewe iyo mbareba mba mbona banyanga.Ntabwo mbabona ko banyanga; baranabigaraga; burya umuntu ukwanga burya ntumuyoberwa.Bakwiye guhinduka nabo bakaza mu; mu murongobaka tugaturana; tugaturana nabi ariko tugaturana bakaturekera ubuzima bwacu;twabaho neza twabaho nabi; ariko bakaduha uburenganzira bwo kubaho kuko ni uburenganzira bwacu.
Aegis: Urabona;icyo nashakaga kuvuga;hari itsemba bwoko ryabayeho;ni itsembabwoko ryari ryateguwe kuburyo nta muntu witwa umututsi wagombaga gusigaraho;bon; umutego mutindi wavuga ko ushibukana nyirawo ni ukuvuga ngo cya gikorwa ntabwo cyaje kubaho; baje kwi retrouva ahubwo babana nab a; Bantu babandi bashakaga kumaraho; bagasanga aribo ?????Icyo nagirango ubabwire ni icyerekeranye n'ibi???????????????
KARENZI: Eeh; ok nagirango mbabwire ko; ok; icyo nababwira; icyo nashobora wenda kubabwira; ibintu byabaye byakababereye ubuhamya bukomeye cyane; kuko ibyo ari byo byose inyuma y'ubu; imbere y'ubu buzima bwacu hari ubundi.Hari n'ubundi bushobozi butagaragarira ahangaha byerekana ko igikorwa cyabo bateguye ntibashoboye kukigeraho kandi si ku bushake bwabo kuko ntibigeze baryama ntibasinziraga byo ntibaryamaga byo; uko babivugaga ntibigeze basinzira.Bagahinduka bakabona ko nyuma y'ubu buzima hari ubundi; bakabona ko hari ikindi kintu kwanza sinanagihisha; bakabona ko hari Imana hejuru;ngo iyakaremye; sinzi uko; ngo iyakaremye niyo ikamena.Yee; bakumva ko byose ubuzima bwacu ntibushingiye kuri bo.Bakwiye kwemera tugaturana; kandi tugaturana neza; kandi icyo mbona cyo; n'icyakababereye ubuhamya mpamya neza ko aho abantu bari bageze mbere y'ubwicanyi ubu ngubu bamaze kongera gutera intambwe yo kuhegera; ndetse hariho n'abaharenze.Icyo babuze ahari ni abantu;ariko abantu basho; ibintu bishobora kuba byarabonetse bikababera ubuhamya bukomeye bw'uko kwica; icyakoze sinzi uko nabivuga.Ibyo nshaka kubivuga mura; ibyo nshaka kuvuga byose murabyumva.
Aegis: Message waha wenda abacitse ku icumu; urabona wenda abana bacitse ku icumu; bagasigara nta miryango ihari; hagasigara n'abantu benshi basigaye ari responsible;????????????????????
KARENZI: Urabona nyuma ya Genocide; abantu bumvise; ubuzima babugize akantu koroshye cyane; uh; abantu bakora ibibi; bara; abantu mbese bakunda gukoresha iterme ngo "Kwangirika"bakunda gukoresha iterime ngo "Kwangirika"Icyo nabakangurira ni uko gusa; nababwira ko bagomba guharanira kubaho; kandi bakabaho neza.Ibyo nahoze mvuga ko ari ba Adamu na Eva b'imiryango yabo bakarema Société nziza; Société igend;tukagerageza guko; bakagerageza gukosora; cyane cyane urubyiruko; bakagerageza gukosora amakosa yose yaba yarakozwe na; n'abo nakwita abatubanjirije; si abacu ndi kuvuga ku ruhande rwacu kuko nta kibi twebwe abacu bakoze; ndashaka kuvuga ko mbese batera ikirenge mu cyabo; kuko nzi ko ababo bari babayeho mu buryo bubanogeye cyane cyane nicyo cyabateraga ishyari ryo kugirango babamare
Aegis: Wenda ubutumwa watanga??????????????
KARENZI: Temoingage;ok; ku; kushobora kubyumva uwo ariwe wese; aah; nshobora kuba navuze amagambo wenda akarisyemo gake; cyangwa atanejeje bamwe; ariko njyewe navuze ibyo numva ngomba kuvuga;mvuga ibyo numva; ok; ibyo navuze kubwanjye numva bikwiye;eeh; kandi numva uwo bitanezeza nta; sinzi; sinzi uko nabivuga.Byose harimo abo bigomba kunezeza; harimo n'abo bigomba kubabaza niko bigomba kumera n'ubundi nta gishimwa na bose.
Aegis: Nta kindi wakongeraho?
KARENZI: Cyane numva nta kindi;uretse ko ubwo ni ubuhamya buri shoti; buri se; ntabwo eeh; bugufi; nabo; nagerageje kubuhina byo ni byinshi; ni byinshi.
Aegis: Njyewe mfite akabazo gato; urabona iyi Cassette izarebwa n'abantu benshi kandi abo Bantu bazayireba harimo n'abana bawe cyangwa n'abuzukuru bawe ?????? Niyo mpamvu rero nanjye nagusaba ko niba hari ikintu wenda wanzura wabwi; wabwira abo Bantu bazagukomokaho; kuko nubwo bishe umuryango wawe ariko uriho kuko wowe uhari.Rero nkumva yuko ndetse n'abandi Bantu bazareba ubu buhamya bo mu mpande zose; kuko barabishe iwanyu barabamara; ariko ntibabamaze nkuko babishakaga ubwo rero ndumva ufite ubutumwa watanga?????
KARENZI: Ok; nkanjye muri ubu buhamya bwanjye byose nanyuze mu buzima bukwiye nyura no mubudakwiye ubuzima bubi; icyo maze kubona ukora icyiza ukagisanga imbere; wakora n'ikibi ukagisanga imbere; ikiruta rero;ubwo guhitamo ni ukwa buri wese azahitamo ibyo; niyumva akwiye kubona; agakora ibyiza akazabisanga imbere cyangwa akazabisigira umuryango we; niba akwiye gukora ibibi akazabisigira umuryango we akabiraga n'urubyaro rwe; guhitamo ndumva ari uruhare rwa buri umwe wese afite amahitamo.
Aegis: Urakoze cyane
KARENZI: Uuuuh.

Identifier mike:	Kmc00124/kmc00124_vid4.mp4
Title:	Oral Testimony of KARENZI Théonèste
Description:	The oral testimony of KARENZI Théonèste, a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsi,recorded by the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda. The testimony discusses early memories of childhood and family, discrimination and persecution of Tutsis before Genocide, the worst atrocities during Genocide, suffering and witnessing human rights abuses, surviving the Genocide, life after the Genocide. The testimony is given in Kinyarwanda.
Media format:	mini-DV tape
Language:	kin

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Oral Testimony of KARENZI Théonèste

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Continues from Part 3 of the Oral History Testimony of Karenzi Théoneste.